LiveJournal: About the site, business, features, and commmunity
Originally shared by Joerg Fliege
Ode to LiveJournal. A site brought down, perhaps, by its hardcore old-style user base.
The inertia of user expectations could become almost impossible to overcome. [..] “We were always saying that we were fighting for the users, that we would run everything by the community before we did anything,” says Mark Smith, a software engineer who worked on LiveJournal and became the co-creator of Dreamwidth. “Well, as it turns out, when you do that, you end up with the community telling you that they want everything to stay the same, forever.
Paolucci sums it up best: “Back in 2007, at the height of the burnout phase, when we were all going for the gallows humor, we joked that we would post in the news journal that we were giving everybody $100, a pony, and a latte, and the first five comments would be people objecting that they couldn’t have caffeine, somebody saying they were allergic to ponies, and somebody going to a screed about how free money is the root of all evil in society,” she recalls.
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2019/01/the-linux-of-social-media-how-livejournal-pioneered-then-lost-web-blogging/
Originally shared by Joerg Fliege
Ode to LiveJournal. A site brought down, perhaps, by its hardcore old-style user base.
The inertia of user expectations could become almost impossible to overcome. [..] “We were always saying that we were fighting for the users, that we would run everything by the community before we did anything,” says Mark Smith, a software engineer who worked on LiveJournal and became the co-creator of Dreamwidth. “Well, as it turns out, when you do that, you end up with the community telling you that they want everything to stay the same, forever.
Paolucci sums it up best: “Back in 2007, at the height of the burnout phase, when we were all going for the gallows humor, we joked that we would post in the news journal that we were giving everybody $100, a pony, and a latte, and the first five comments would be people objecting that they couldn’t have caffeine, somebody saying they were allergic to ponies, and somebody going to a screed about how free money is the root of all evil in society,” she recalls.
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2019/01/the-linux-of-social-media-how-livejournal-pioneered-then-lost-web-blogging/
It's a bit sad really, Dreamwidth makes Pluspora and its ilk look like a primitive half-baked broken thing, and yet people won't even try it.
ReplyDeleteEdward Morbius Do you use Dreamwidth? Have you written your thoughts on it anywhere that you have a handy link to?
ReplyDeleteFrom your post, I found my way to this tangential, completely unrelated (except that Dreamwidth uses OpenID) thread ... news.ycombinator.com - > *We're moving in the wrong direction.* The thing is, too often do people lame... | Hacker News
Thom Thomas Some comments at the Dreddit:
ReplyDeleteold.reddit.com - Current Plans on Migrating this Blog Elsewhere
Excellent. Thanks Edward Morbius
ReplyDeleteI'm silkensteel on dreamwidth.
ReplyDeleteI still have my LJ account from 2004, and my DreamWidth one I migrated to when the opportunity arose. And surprisingly, there are others still on each.
ReplyDeleteI don’t use it much, but https://brianhawthorne.dreamwidth.org/
ReplyDelete"...There was an antagonistic relationship between the ‘power user’ and the people emotionally connected to the community versus the people making decisions for the product. There was no trust in either direction. That antagonism is really what doomed it."
ReplyDeleteWhat will keep Facebook from imploding is that it never bothered to establish any trust, so it has none to squander.
My parents still had the old Bell rotary dial telephone in the kitchen until the day they died earlier this decade. For some reason, this article made me think of that.
ReplyDeleteI regret moving from LJ to G+ and dragging my friends along, especially after the discovery that Takeout is broken. Unfortunately going back to LJ or dreamwidth there's hardly anyone I know any more on either. On the bright side I've found most of my friends on mewe, so the good times keep on rolling.
ReplyDeleteI had an LJ back when I ass in high school. It was truly great.
ReplyDeleteBill Pusztai > Dreamwidth
ReplyDelete> makes Pluspora and its ilk
> look like a primitive
> half-baked broken thing, and
> yet people won't even try it.
Well, not exactly: I like Dreamwidth enough to subscribe voluntarily to an optional Paid Account with the service. I haven't used it much yet; however, FWIW, here's my circle there:
https://benjamin-russell.dreamwidth.org/
My main pet peeve with the service is that it requires me to open a new tab every time that I wish to submit a new post (as opposed to a comment).
Edward Morbius Incidentally, I have just shared the content of your post on my Dreamwidth account:
ReplyDeletebenjamin-russell.dreamwidth.org - benjamin_russell | LiveJournal: About the site, business, features, and commmunity
My spouse was an LJ community mod back in the day, and still uses Dreamwidth, although it's way back in the rear-view mirror compared to Facebook. I see that DW devs have been discussing implementing federation, which I hope happens.
ReplyDeleteDerek Lichter From what I have seen so far, Dreamwidth seems to have a number of very interesting users and a distinct flavor of its own that seems to emphasize original discussion; however, what it currently lacks is enough users and activity.
ReplyDeleteThe main problem is that it needs more users to contribute posts.
Personally, I would prefer to be more active on Dreamwidth; however, that is rather difficult when nobody seems to comment on my posts, and nobody seems to contribute new posts to the (few) communities that I have joined. There is a certain minimum critical degree of discussion that is needed to form the basis of an interesting social network service, and that is what is needed most.
Benjamin Russell it is difficult to get the ball rolling there unless you know people. The recommended MO is to start commenting freely on other people's posts, and if they find your comments interesting enough they will go look at your profile. A lot happens there that you can't see unless you've been granted permission. It will take a while for people to warm up - they will be watching to determine if you're a bot, or someone likely to disappear.
ReplyDeleteBill Pusztai > The
ReplyDelete> recommended MO is to start
> commenting freely on other
> people's posts, and if they find
> your comments interesting
> enough they will go look at your
> profile.
Interesting modus operandi.
This could be a problem, however, for someone who has interests primarily served by conflicting audiences; e.g., interests in mathematics and otaku subculture. This is especially the case if that user wishes to maximize the number of followers simultaneously.
Personally, I usually have handled this issue here on Google+ by joining/creating separate communities for nerdy (e.g., mathematics/functional programming/computer science-related) and otaku-geeky (e.g., anime/online interactive digital entertainment-related) topics, hiding both such communities and any posts in those communities in my main circle, and posting only relatively neutral (e.g., astronomy/social-network-service/consumer-technology-related) topics in my main circle.
However, your suggestion has given me an idea: I could simply employ the same strategy on Dreamwidth as on Google+. The main problem would be to find a way to associate comments to posts in in specialized communities with my personae in those specialized communities, as opposed to my personae in specialized communities with conflicting audiences.
For example, if I posted a comment to a post on, say, category theory, I would need to find a way to ensure that the poster of that post would not see a post of mine related to, say, Japanese otaku subculture; otherwise, the poster would most likely treat me as belonging to a conflicting or orthogonal type of user, and either ignore or ban me (this once happened with a Haskellite who claimed to be interested in "games" when I mentioned an online title for solo-play--he replied, "I do not like to play with people I don't know," and when I then attempted to shift the discussion to some other topic in which he did have an interest, he simply ignored me thereafter).
One strategy might be to post a link to a related community every time that I posted a comment to a post by a user on some potentially conflicting topic; this would decrease the chance that that user would end up finding a post by me on a topic that that person disliked, and then ignoring/banning me as a result.
The problem with most mathematicians/computer scientists/haiku poets is that they usually dislike otaku subculture, whereas most otaku dislike topics in mathematics/computer science/haiku poetry. This situation forces me to segregate the audiences for my posts on nerdy and otaku-geeky topics so that they do not interact with each other and wind up potentially ignoring/banning me as a result.
Benjamin Russell well you're in luck, cause if there's an otaku-haiku-coder subculture, they're probably on DW writing an AI to generate daily poems on themes from hentai manga.
ReplyDeleteBut seriously, this is an issue with human nature, and no platform is going to stop people being dicks. The control for it on DW is that people don't let you see their private stuff until they are comfortable that you're not a jerk. SO just keep commenting and try not to be a jerk.
Benjamin Russell oh I guess I should also add that I don't for a minute think that DW is for everyone. If all one wants to do is post selfies and pictures of lunch and get plusses and rack up followers, it is completely unsuitable. DW people just won't. FB etc are for that kind of "interaction".
ReplyDeleteBill Pusztai > But seriously,
ReplyDelete> this is an issue with human
> nature, and no platform is
> going to stop people being
> dicks.
Well ... based on my experiences with many mathematicians, computer scientists/Haskellites, and poets, as well as many otaku, most of the former tend to be incompatible with the latter.
To quote "Urban Dictionary: Geek/Nerd Debate" (see https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Geek/Nerd+Debate),
> Geek/Nerd Debate
>
> There is a difference between geeks and nerds.
>
> Nerds are smart, people who lack much of a social life. They often
> have very few friends. Nerds don't talk much, and don't expect others
> to talk much to them. They are usually nice people, but don't have the
> social skills to go out and meet new friends.
>
> Geeks are different from nerds in the fact that they have social lives.
> However, these social lives are often spent pursuing some passion
> that the geek is obsessed with (i.e. Yu-Gi-Oh!). They spend all
> their time thinking about their one obsession, and play it in all of their
> free time. Geeks are usually only friends with other geeks, and
> attempts to converse with geeks is futile, unless, of course, you want
> to talk about Star Trek or whatever the certain geek is obsessed with.
>
> Examples of geek obsessions are Star Trek, Yu-Gi-Oh!, Magic the
> Gathering, StarCraft, and basically any other RPG.
>
> Nerds are often very shy, while geeks are more outgoing.
>
> Nerds spend most of their free time studying, while geeks make free
> time so they can play Dungeons and Dragons.
>
> Nerds care what others think of them, but geeks are almost oblivious
> to the existence of those outside of their geek clan.
>
> Based on all this, I would have to conclude that it is easier to befriend
> a nerd than a geek, but a geek would probably be a more interesting
> person.
>
> by Rodney Basil April 30, 2004
This is not an issue of certain people being "dicks"; it is a much more widespread one of nerds and otaku-geeks being substantially incompatible with each other.
Specifically, most of the Haskellites whom I have encountered are mathematicians-in-disguise who merely use Haskell as a means for expressing their equations in the form of computer programs. As such, even when they happen to play certain titles, the titles that they do play tend to be substantially different from those played by most otaku-geeks.
For example, most Haskellites whom I have encountered play primarily offline titles such as offline versions of Minecraft or puzzle titles. In those rare cases in which certain programmers do play online titles, they tend to play primarily extremely tedious titles that tend to turn off most otaku-geeks, such as EVE Online (conventionally referred to by otaku-geeks as a "spreadsheet simulator").
As a result, most Haskellite-type/mathematician-type nerds tend to harbor a secret (or, in some cases, not-so-secret) disdain of titles played by more conventional otaku-geeks, as well as anyone who plays them--especially if those titles are online fantasy role-playing titles that are deemed to be populated by players who are treated as not being on their level of maturity/vocabulary/scholastic-orientation.
In the particular case that I mentioned earlier, the reason that I tried to suggest solo-play of a Japanese online title was that I usually use a personal computer, instead of a console, for such applications, and most Japanese offline RPGs (even in English) can only be played on some sort of console, such as a PS4/Nintendo Switch/3DS. Therefore, in order to achieve the equivalent of playing an offline Japanese title (even in English) using a personal computer, it is usually necessary to solo-play an online title.
ReplyDelete(In the particular case of that Haskellite, he happened to play Minecraft; however, he played an offline, not an online, version of that title; at the time, I was struggling to find someone of similar interests in a new title that I had just started exploring, Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn (which I later found to be much less satisfying than originally expected, and eventually substantially almost stopped playing). Apparently, he treated that title as a form of "mindrot" (a term used by some programmers to describe allegedly intellectually-deteriorating MMORPGs--this term is usually used specifically to describe World of Warcraft and EverQuest), and decided to treat me thereafter as a mindrot-playing sub-standard pseudo-Haskellite, and therefore decided to ignore me thereafter.)
Other Haskellites have been somewhat more discreet; one other Haskellite merely described me as being "weird." I have never encountered any Haskellite or mathematician who has learned of my otaku-subculture-related interests who has shared those interests; by contrast, I have encountered some Schemers (users of the Scheme programming language) who have expressed an interest in role-playing games; however, most Schemers, unlike most Haskellites, are programmers, and not mathematicians-in-disguise; most mathematicians, unlike most programmers, harbor a certain degree of contempt toward anyone who is not utterly fascinated by mathematics to the exclusion of non-mathematical conventional fantasy role-playing.
(Just for the record, I do not usually play Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn, except for certain seasonal events, because I do not get along with most other players in that title; specifically, they usually are only interested in finding other players to join their so-called "parties" for raids, whereas I am chiefly interested in narratological and ludological topics, which somehow seem to bore them. For the same reason, I have never played World of Warcraft, either. However, I do play Dragon Quest X Online (in Japanese, to practice reading/writing in Japanese, which is not my native language). I also play Secret World Legends, a Norwegian MMORPG set in a fantasy world based on the lore of H. P. Lovecraft. I usually solo-play because it is usually extremely difficult to find any other players in any online titles who share common interests in mathematics, computer science, Haskell, Scheme, or haiku poetry.)
By contrast, most otaku-geeks are primarily interested in anime, manga, and Japanese role-playing titles only. If they see something related to mathematics, computer science, or poetry, they usually leave immediately because they are not interested in such topics, do not consider them to be entertaining, and consider people who are interested in such topics to be dry, nerdy eggheads who are incapable of understanding the fun in otaku subculture.
Hence the need to ensure that my nerd and otaku-geek audiences be kept separate--not because certain people in them are "dicks," but because nerds and otaku-geeks just do not get along in general.
urbandictionary.com - Urban Dictionary: Geek/Nerd Debate
Benjamin Russell I don't know either world, so most of your comments just fly right past me. I'm an art geek, or nerd, or something, and I appreciate the beauty of games, manga, pure math, programming, and so on. Maybe there are others like me for you to find, but who are part of the communities?
ReplyDeleteBill Pusztai > I'm an art geek,
ReplyDelete> or nerd, or something, and I
> appreciate the beauty of
> games, manga, pure math,
> programming, and so on.
> Maybe there are others like
> me for you to find, but who are
> part of the communities?
Extremely unlikely. Haskellites/mathematician-in-disguise nerds and otaku-geeks are substantially mutually-exclusive.
In a nutshell: Trying to discuss anime or solo-play of Japanese online role-playing games with most mathematicians is like trying to discuss popular music with a professor of mathematics: The two simply don't mix.
Have you every tried to walk up to a professor of theoretical computer science at, say, Yale University (my alma mater) and discuss, say, The Elder Scrolls Online? The result would be similar.
Generally speaking, it would not be a good idea.
Personally, I need to find both Haskellite/mathematician-in-disguise nerds and Japanese role-playing-game-player otaku-geeks on the same social network medium without alienating either group.
Trust me: It isn't easy.
Derek Lichter It would be great if the DID implement Federation.
ReplyDeleteBenjamin Russell it surprises me to hear that Haskellites can be found on any public social network in significant number. My experience with math nerds is they tend to be suspicious of anything more modern than mailing lists and irc. (I'm just a hanger-on myself).
ReplyDeleteDerek Lichter > it surprises
ReplyDelete> me to hear that Haskellites
> can be found on any public
> social network in significant
> number.
> My experience with math nerds....
Well, Haskellites are not pure mathematician nerds, but half-computer-scientist/half-mathematician-in-hiding nerds. Therefore, they can also be found on certain social network media.
For example, my own Haskell-related community here on Google+, "Haskell: The Haskell-Beginners Community - Google+" (which I created) (see https://plus.google.com/communities/101629034466170191725), currently has 3345 members.
The main Haskell community on Google+ (see https://plus.google.com/communities/104818126031270146189) has another 5447 members.
Haskell: The Haskell-Beginners Community
This is a good summary of why I left LJ after years as an active user there ... and came to G+. You'd think I'd have learned by now not to invest all my social media activity in one platform. *sigh*
ReplyDelete